20 replies to this topic

[Bergman1]

I play on OHS, with -s6borc mode. Thus these are a very frequent appearance in my games (i'd estimate 1/2-1/3 of all games). These are problematic in my opinion for a number of reasons:

 

1. In the hands of a skilled player, they far exceed others (barring some very rare variants of 1-hit) in how strong they are, both in pushing power and in terms of hero-killing power

 

2. They are very hard to counter in terms of items: infernals can arguably be somewhat dealt with with battlefury/maelstrom, but it still requires you to have a lot of farm to be able to stand up to the infernals in the first place. Much more than can usually be attained before the rearm player hits lvl 8+ and can start rearming his ulti

 

3. They completely change how the game is played. Instead of playing against heroes like ordinary, you usually end up futilely trying to clear your base of wards/infernals in one lane while the opponent TP:s to the other and summons 4-5 new rounds there. This ends up being both boring and very frustrating in a game designed to pit custom heroes against each other.

 

The end result is usually that you will lose any game against these builds unless the rearm player is very bad at dota, or you are already stomping the other team hard enough that you can push raxx at ~15 min. "Ganking" the rearm player doesn't really work in practice because you usually need 2-3 players to kill him, and if you fail you will likely upon up an opportunity for him to take a tower on the other side of the map. If you are successful he will usually be able to buyback due to his superior farm and take a tower nevertheless. Even if you succeed you are unlikely to accomplish much as you quickly need to back off to your base as soon as he respawns. These above scenarios of course assume an almost 5v1 scenario vs the rearm player, which is of course not the case in a real game.

 

Currently these are locked behind -rc mode, and I would suggest one of the following:

1. Banning the combos entirely

2: Removing other, less powerful combinations from -rc thus making it exclusive for these and allowing the others in -s6bo

3: Allow items to somehow counter MSW/RoC. Someone suggested making diffusal purge having unlimited charges in another thread, which I think is a good idea. For wards I would suggest making mael/mjoll/cleave effects work on them. There would thus be a way around "losing by draft" and allow you to adapt. The rearm builds would still be a threat due to their pushing power, but you would actually be able to stop the pushes somewhat with the right items

[Whiteboard]

Suggestion:

Rearm no longer refreshes ultimates.

- Sincerely, Whiteboard.

[Ech0]

1. In the hands of a skilled player, they far exceed others (barring some very rare variants of 1-hit) in how strong they are, both in pushing power and in terms of hero-killing power

 

Just saying...

 

But in reality that is not the real problem with these builds mostly. It's mostly the early game pushing power that wins it since your team can have all lane towers down in just a few minutes, is what makes your team so strong...And this is only achievable by completely ignoring the pusher... Tons of money, also achievable on other means in the game. But this goes for all team really fast.

 

Rocs for example isn't as itself such a problem before level 18 if you have a build that can farm from them...

After this it's strong because he can stun lock you but combined with other disables (bloodrite is best ever) may also happen earlier, though i like the build farm way, it's much faster to get in the game.

 

But wards on the other hand... He gets aghanims and you can't probably do anything if your team doesn't have Centaur skill return on hero that kills the wards when they hit you, its just so much physical dmg... I used to reflect the ward dmg on earlier versions with blademail back to the casting hero on earlier versions and kill him that way but it's not possible anymore... (what a good counter idea for upcoming versions)

 

Now these are strong builds that push mostly. I hear this whine so much but is just a common mistake, people don't know how to counter it... What you should expect from this guy is he goes lane to lane mainly focusing on pushing it. Now if hes on bottom lane and casted like 2 waves there, maybe you can expect him on other lane then... And gank him there. Always build silence when there is guy like this ingame... And keep on ganking him... It's only strong if you ignore it, goes for pretty much everybuild.

[Bergman1]

 

Just saying...
 
But in reality that is not the real problem with these builds mostly. It's mostly the early game pushing power that wins it since your team can have all lane towers down in just a few minutes, is what makes your team so strong...And this is only achievable by completely ignoring the pusher... Tons of money, also achievable on other means in the game. But this goes for all team really fast.
 
Rocs for example isn't as itself such a problem before level 18 if you have a build that can farm from them...
After this it's strong because he can stun lock you but combined with other disables (bloodrite is best ever) may also happen earlier, though i like the build farm way, it's much faster to get in the game.

I certainly agree that RoCs is the lesser of these builds. I do not agree that they are a not a problem even if you have a build that is a strong counter to them. Melee builds simply cannot stand up to 3+ golems at lvl 8ish, and most carries deal too little damage at that point to be able to reliably clear them. Sure, if they just leave the infernals autoattacking a tower it is possible, but that assumes that the rearm player is really bad to begin with. It is also very hard to fight into the infernals early (again, not assuming 3+v1 scenario) as they just deal way too much hero damage early combined with the rearm players 2+ disables.

Combine that with the fact that the RoC player farms faster than all builds (rearm rocs is even faster than wards in this regard), can easily take roshan, has global mobility, can push faster than anyone except lategame carries and rearm wards and, as you say, is actually at it's strongest at lvl 18 where you can reach a point where the enemy simply cant clear infernals fast enough for you to prevent them from doing heavy tower damage. There's also the problem of them being almost unkillable with spells unless you have really like MC razes/purification due to their magic resistance in combination with their high HP regen as well as them being straight out immune to a lot of AoE spells (

But wards on the other hand... He gets aghanims and you can't probably do anything if your team doesn't have Centaur skill return on hero that kills the wards when they hit you, its just so much physical dmg... I used to reflect the ward dmg on earlier versions with blademail back to the casting hero on earlier versions and kill him that way but it's not possible anymore... (what a good counter idea for upcoming versions)
 
Now these are strong builds that push mostly. I hear this whine so much but is just a common mistake, people don't know how to counter it... What you should expect from this guy is he goes lane to lane mainly focusing on pushing it. Now if hes on bottom lane and casted like 2 waves there, maybe you can expect him on other lane then... And gank him there. Always build silence when there is guy like this ingame... And keep on ganking him... It's only strong if you ignore it, goes for pretty much everybuild.

 

Return is probably the only skill that worked relatively well against MSW, but the return player is just as helpless as anyone else if the MSW player is competent and made the wards focus on buildings instead. The strength in having return is mostly due to being able to tank creep-waves outside of tower range while the MSW cannot kill him. It's still nearly impossible to hold the outer towers due to not having global mobility in most cases, and the MSW will still be able to gank globally as well as fight in teamfights while you mostly have to keep close to the base, making sure to always have your TP off cooldown so you can react quickly to him TP:ing to the opposite lane. MSW still has a distinct advantage even over it's direct "counter" as he can still push much faster as well as help his team more easily.

And I disagree with your point that these two builds are mostly strong at pushing. There are few builds that can win in a 1v1 vs them (and they are both very strong in bigger clashes, especially the stun from RoC), and those that do do so assuming they get the first strike. If the rearm player gets the jump, they will likely be able to kill the other target or force them to retreat. Expecting him in the other lane is a very good thing to do, and I do this often, but I find it often doesn't matter enough unless the rearm player is really predictable and keeps feeding in the same manner. Assuming your teams are somewhat equal (which of course isn't even true in most cases due to tower advantages for the rearm players team, which means more gold, easier access to jungle and more map control) it will be really hard for your team to push towers into 3-4x sets of wards/golem spam unless you managed to gank him when he gets 80+ seconds respawn timer.

And btw, I'm a pretty good player so I know what I'm talking about. I have like ~4 k/d and ~70% win on OHS, and I dont stack, so don't think of this as just a "whine" please.

[Whiteboard]

Just saying...

 

But in reality that is not the real problem with these builds mostly. It's mostly the early game pushing power that wins it since your team can have all lane towers down in just a few minutes, is what makes your team so strong...And this is only achievable by completely ignoring the pusher... Tons of money, also achievable on other means in the game. But this goes for all team really fast.

 

Rocs for example isn't as itself such a problem before level 18 if you have a build that can farm from them...

After this it's strong because he can stun lock you but combined with other disables (bloodrite is best ever) may also happen earlier, though i like the build farm way, it's much faster to get in the game.

 

But wards on the other hand... He gets aghanims and you can't probably do anything if your team doesn't have Centaur skill return on hero that kills the wards when they hit you, its just so much physical dmg... I used to reflect the ward dmg on earlier versions with blademail back to the casting hero on earlier versions and kill him that way but it's not possible anymore... (what a good counter idea for upcoming versions)

 

Now these are strong builds that push mostly. I hear this whine so much but is just a common mistake, people don't know how to counter it... What you should expect from this guy is he goes lane to lane mainly focusing on pushing it. Now if hes on bottom lane and casted like 2 waves there, maybe you can expect him on other lane then... And gank him there. Always build silence when there is guy like this ingame... And keep on ganking him... It's only strong if you ignore it, goes for pretty much everybuild.

 

Indeed.

As it appears to me, Rain of Chaos / Mass wards is a pubstomp tactic for quick wins.

It offers mobile power you can dump on an area for easy pushing or standing your ground.

 

Naturally - Best solution would not to be taking this power to the face. Ergo dont hug the infernals and let them smack you.
- Same applies to wards.

Best counter for this problem would be to avoid them and strike the source.
If you cant, get more power to do so.

 

If you need time to get more power, buy more time by stalling.

 

Ultimatively, the verdict calls: Wait and see, if you cant find a solution to this pub-stomp tactic -> Nerf Rearm.

- Sincerely, Whiteboard.

[sm0ke]

No no no. Disagree with you guys. This combo can be counter with invis and orchid. Or even invis BM duel. Or just focus that summoner using 3-4 heroes in your team.

Not want this combo to happen just not play with -rc mode. When i host i stop to put -bo long time ago and happy with it.

[ResQ]

Not using balance off mode (I mean.. that just literally says it.. balance OFF. What did you expect?) solves a lot, but nevertheless we'll nerf a couple pushing ultis in s6 next patch slightly.

[Ech0]

Didn't say it was "ONLY" for pushing Just said it's the most common way people use it Ofcourse it is strong in teamfights because the stun goes through bkb etc... plus the flaming fists deal just insane AoE magical damage combined  with rexxars aura and feral impulse you can deal massive amounts of damage in just few seconds until you can get another one there with additional stun .

 

But that exactly is the main point i was trying to say... You should not at anypoint of game ignore the roccer or warder but gank him all the time and always focus him... It is counterable if you just want to... Mostly people just tend to say oh rocs LAME or same for snakes and just simply be done with the game at the point they see it. Well for wards i could say it myself, it's actually retarted... But rocs on the other hand i've seen so many people fail with it utterly along these years... It's only strong on good players but like 5vs1 good

 

But for most games as said above it is really this simple...

 

No no no. Disagree with you guys. This combo can be counter with invis and orchid. Or even invis BM duel. Or just focus that summoner using 3-4 heroes in your team.

 Just don't let him farm and its fairly easily countered.

 

I think i was too obvious trying to protect this build Never lost a game with it...

 

I think for making it more balanced on -s6 mode there could be something like a cast limit, after enough golems/ward stacks they just disappear like earlier casted techies mines... Should work pretty good but still keeping the actual combination.

[DracoL1ch]

rearm cannot be modified anyhow, it can only exclude some items from being refreshed, not skills

[Bergman1]

According to Grief, OHS will end up removing -rc mode when they switch to a new map due to community consensus on how frustrating these builds are for gameplay. A bit of a shame for the other reasonable rearm combinations, but at least a significant amount of games will no longer be nigh unplayable due to those builds. 25% is not really significant reduction for these builds, sadly.

[Jiminy_Cricket]

No skill ruins an lod game more than rearm.  When players can perma doom you and perma stun you without you even being able to move the game of act and react is ruined.  Id like to see rearm significantly nerfed or removed entirely or blockage or abusable skills.  Ive played in games where people take rearm curse of the silent and another teamate rearm ravage.  They just stun you and drain all your mana over and over.  You cant do a single thing.  Ive played in games where they take harbys ult and astral imprisonment with glaives.  Permanent imprisonment and ult till you die.  This isnt what dota and lod was meant to be.  Shooting fish in a barrel isnt fun and neither is being shot in a barrel unable to defend yourself.  At least with supernova theres a long cooldown so you cant really abuse it.

[Whiteboard]

No skill ruins an lod game more than rearm.  When players can perma doom you and perma stun you without you even being able to move the game of act and react is ruined.  Id like to see rearm significantly nerfed or removed entirely or blockage or abusable skills.  Ive played in games where people take rearm curse of the silent and another teamate rearm ravage.  They just stun you and drain all your mana over and over.  You cant do a single thing.  Ive played in games where they take harbys ult and astral imprisonment with glaives.  Permanent imprisonment and ult till you die.  This isnt what dota and lod was meant to be.  Shooting fish in a barrel isnt fun and neither is being shot in a barrel unable to defend yourself.  At least with supernova theres a long cooldown so you cant really abuse it.

Rekt.

It's a broken game mode.

Things break.

Deal with it.

 

- Sincerely, Whiteboard.

[Jiminy_Cricket]

WB you annoying.  Just dont comment on six skill mode.  We play it and we like it.  Nuff said.

 

Please add Rearm Roots to non-pickables just as rearm wards and rearm Roc is.  So off the charts stupid op.  Cant move at all.  Get your whole team with gem and tangos and still cant move to chop the trees down before you die.

[Whiteboard]

WB you annoying.  Just dont comment on six skill mode.  We play it and we like it.  Nuff said.

 

Please add Rearm Roots to non-pickables just as rearm wards and rearm Roc is.  So off the charts stupid op.  Cant move at all.  Get your whole team with gem and tangos and still cant move to chop the trees down before you die.

Apparently you dont.

If you were satisfied you wouldnt complain / "suggest balance" *cough cough* changes.

 

- Sincerely, Whiteboard.

[Hillomunkki]

Six skills never had any semblance of balance whatsoever. Those who play it actually like the unbalanced stuff, you're in the minority for wanting balance changes applied to the mode Jiminy_Cricket.

[Jiminy_Cricket]

Seriously any of you who dont play 6 skill mode dont comment on it.  We play it and I know the community thinks rearm roots is crazy broke right now.  This is the issue we face.  And dont tell me the community doesnt want balance.  Every sector on RGC plays with some sort of balance whether it's banning certain skill combos or limiting teams to one skill per team.  If players want off the charts op, they can play imba dota.  I dont care if players cry because they can no  longer cast spells while being perma invis and not be revealed.  Thats op shit and it needs to die just as the mega one hit did and just as the perma aftershockers did.

[Whiteboard]

Seriously any of you who dont play 6 skill mode dont comment on it.  We play it and I know the community thinks rearm roots is crazy broke right now.  This is the issue we face.  And dont tell me the community doesnt want balance.  Every sector on RGC plays with some sort of balance whether it's banning certain skill combos or limiting teams to one skill per team.  If players want off the charts op, they can play imba dota.  I dont care if players cry because they can no  longer cast spells while being perma invis and not be revealed.  Thats op shit and it needs to die just as the mega one hit did and just as the perma aftershockers did.

 

Reminds me of playing -WTF mode on battle.net a decade ago ish.

 

People like the crazy fun of it a few times, then realize the simple "how2win" bulldozing tactics. (Spam Wrath).

 

Then people went into denial mode, thinking we can fix this and still make it playable.

Lots of items and skills where banned by hosts and bots giving you a decent Tug-of-War matches.

But the mode is what it is.

It's broken and its not ment to be played seriously.

If you wanna tryhard on a broken game mode, thats your choice.
- But being in denial of its current state and purpose wont give you anything.

Step your game up, find a better envoirment to exercise your skill and hf.

Or gtfo.

 

- Sincerely, Whiteboard.

[Jiminy_Cricket]

4 skill lodo was broke too before balance.  You make tweaks and the game becomes more enjoyable. 

[sewww]

6 skills mode is  times more fun  than  regular s4 ,  also s6 is not a definition for unbalance ,  the BO shitmode that the other communities  put in the mode is the reason for crappy games , in garena we just play mdd2s6  , and evrything is fine no problems , no uber imbas  and stuff , the point in the balance gaming is to have 10 or 20 heroes (not more)  and your draft to be the same as your enemies draft.

[Jiminy_Cricket]

The latest craze seems to be rearming eclipse, deafeating blast and a stun.  You can sit there and kill everyone and they cant even move.  Id like to see rearm's cooldown nerfed significantly.  It makes the game not a game and just shooting fish in a barrel.