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stun no more


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#1 DracoL1ch

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 08:06 PM

yet another thread about how to fucking solve stun issue. it's not fun really when everybody pickup a stun and trainwreck enemies one by one. in original doto it's compensated with not-that-reliable skills, which didn't help hero to perform that well in late stages. With skill picking there are no limits anymore.

 

We dont want retarded rubberband, but stuns have to be managed somehow. Any proper ideas how?

 

From my (nonplayer) pov: just turn aoe stuns into silence+1000% as/ms slow. only single target stuns will retain it's properties.


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#2 Whiteboard

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 08:38 PM

All non-ultimate stuns applies Sleep.


GG humanity, as always.

#3 skyzerst

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 09:27 PM

yet another thread about how to fucking solve stun issue. it's not fun really when everybody pickup a stun and trainwreck enemies one by one. in original doto it's compensated with not-that-reliable skills, which didn't help hero to perform that well in late stages. With skill picking there are no limits anymore.

 

We dont want retarded rubberband, but stuns have to be managed somehow. Any proper ideas how?

 

From my (nonplayer) pov: just turn aoe stuns into silence+1000% as/ms slow. only single target stuns will retain it's properties.

turn all non-ultimate aeo stuns into silence+100% as/ms slow? well i can't agree with you....
counter it by BKB(black king bar) for carry and orcid for support
and it's not like our entire members of team are carry isn't it ? XD



#4 Hillomunkki

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 10:17 PM

How many heroes in dota have an invis/blink and a stun? Only NA comes to mind and his stun is ground target, slow to cast and he's stupid in other ways. I'd suggest changing it so that you can't pick those together. Changing them to silence+slow (100 ms is as good as being stunned anyway) is not going to fix the issue. The skills themselves need to have major downsides so that you'd have to think twice whether to pick that Storm Bolt or Test of Faith.

 

Another thing is the purposeful balance regarding stats, mana costs and heroes being melee/ranged. Sven has a manapool of ~200, barely enough to cast Storm Bolt and Warcry. Meanwhile in lodo, you can pick Dark Seer with 25 intelligence and 2.5 gains and spam 0.2 cast point stuns like a madman. Add in the fact that in most situations stuns are just overall better as nukes as well. 325 damage Storm Bolt, 325 damage Magic Missile, they deal way too much damage compared to the utility they bring compared to regular nukes.



#5 DracoL1ch

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 11:25 PM

didn't we reduce damage on storm bolt before?


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#6 Mirar

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 11:35 PM

reduce dmg on all stuns so people have to Play support if they wanna get mass stuns

nearly noone will take stuns then (look on storm bolt only because -75 dmg its unliked now)



#7 Jiminy_Cricket

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 04:41 AM

I've thought about this too.  Lower the duration of the stun length.  If a stun is a 2 second stun make it a 1.75 sec stun.  Nerf the stun length and increase the damage to compensate so casters can go toe to toe with carries still.   Lower the basher stuns as well.  Void and slard bash are fine at 1 sec but troll bash and regular basher could use a small nerf in stun length.  Just raise the damage to compensate.

 

Also a big thing that will help and Burnt helped think of this is to create a skill that is like linkens except no stats and regen.  Just a spell block that has a reasonable timer attached to it.  Be nice to have it in the draft.  If you want to add it to a skill that is never picked that's fine too.  Gravekeepers cloak is never picked.  Just throw a spell block on it.  Flameguard would work too.  No one picks it not that they cant be cheap and rearm flameguard. 



#8 Hillomunkki

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 07:11 AM

Nevermind Storm Bolt, compare Night Stalker's Void to Magic Missile. Both are single target, relatively high damage, yet one is a stun and the other one a ministun + slow. Which one is picked more I wonder?

 

I do remember Storm Bolt's damage getting reduced to like 125 but it was reverted back to its original values almost immediately. No idea after that.



#9 Entrails

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 09:19 AM

Exchange all stuns to slow

stun duration becomes 100% ms/as slow

increase all stun skills dmg by 50

 

well. idk about removing every stun but you can still leave some stuns but dmg is nerfed



#10 Burnt

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 01:07 PM

@DracoL1ch

 

I did suggest to add linken effect upon activation of ember's flameguard, which has 30 sec cd.

 

But are we talking about 4-skill mode here? Cuz in 6 skill mode it seems 6 passives is a lot stronger than 6 stuns (if not mc) especially with berserker blood. (Imagine a pitlord with morph, dispersion, backtrack, berserker blood, borrowed time, reincarnation)

 

Anyways, if we're talking about 4-skill mode, one possible solution would be:

 

  • Buff BKB minimum duration from 5 seconds to 7 seconds.

totally BURNT


#11 Entrails

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 01:32 PM

 

@DracoL1ch

 

I did suggest to add linken effect upon activation of ember's flameguard, which has 30 sec cd.

 

But are we talking about 4-skill mode here? Cuz in 6 skill mode it seems 6 passives is a lot stronger than 6 stuns (if not mc) especially with berserker blood. (Imagine a pitlord with morph, dispersion, backtrack, berserker blood, borrowed time, reincarnation)

 

Anyways, if we're talking about 4-skill mode, one possible solution would be:

 

  • Buff BKB minimum duration from 5 seconds to 7 seconds.

 

thread should only be about the topic, go make another thread for this suggestion



#12 Whiteboard

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 04:08 PM

All non-ultimate stuns applies Sleep.

 

People are just gonna ignore this.

 

And rant about damage ratios and stun durations.

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

Buffing nuke damage to balance out the replacement with slow will simply make stunbots more nukish.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

As for Slow/Silence mechanics in place of stun, it's essentially the same until you use items.

 

All direct stunning spells now applies Sleep instead -> Permastun became impossible.

 - Case closed.

 

You people are stupid.


GG humanity, as always.

#13 Entrails

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 04:20 PM

People are just gonna ignore this.

 

And rant about damage ratios and stun durations.

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

Buffing nuke damage to balance out the replacement with slow will simply make stunbots more nukish.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

As for Slow/Silence mechanics in place of stun, it's essentially the same until you use items.

 

All direct stunning spells now applies Sleep instead -> Permastun became impossible.

 - Case closed.

 

You people are stupid.

so does the sleep duration increase per skill applied? or we should make everything like stonegaze lmao



#14 Whiteboard

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 04:30 PM

so does the sleep duration increase per skill applied? or we should make everything like stonegaze lmao

 

Also stupid, Stonegaze stuns.
- And is unaffected by the proposition.

 

Doesnt matter how you scale it, do what you want with the sleep duration.

 

Point is -> Next damage source removes the disable -> Nukers will nuke irregardless without any change + Utility is no longer transforming people to target dummies.

(Which I believe is Draco's major complaint.)
- For the most part, people need to adapt their drafting when tryharding.

 

This would effectively raise the difficulty of the map causing people to work together instead of unloading their kit on people when shit goes down.

 

As mentioned earlier, next damage source removes the disable.

You dont want to miss your opportunity you have created.

 

- Regards, Whiteboard.


GG humanity, as always.

#15 Entrails

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 05:27 PM

Also stupid, Stonegaze stuns.
- And is unaffected by the proposition.

 

Doesnt matter how you scale it, do what you want with the sleep duration.

 

Point is -> Next damage source removes the disable -> Nukers will nuke irregardless without any change + Utility is no longer transforming people to target dummies.

(Which I believe is Draco's major complaint.)
- For the most part, people need to adapt their drafting when tryharding.

 

This would effectively raise the difficulty of the map causing people to work together instead of unloading their kit on people when shit goes down.

 

As mentioned earlier, next damage source removes the disable.

You dont want to miss your opportunity you have created.

 

- Regards, Whiteboard.

hmm if next dmg source removes the disable, then make the next dmg amplified if unit is asleep? makes sense.



#16 Jiminy_Cricket

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 05:44 PM

thread should only be about the topic, go make another thread for this suggestion

Entrails it was about the topic, retard.



#17 Entrails

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 06:22 PM

Entrails it was about the topic, retard.

linkens effect on flame guard is far from the topic about reworking stuns itself. Don't call people retarded when your nerf suggestions about rearm is retarded itself 



#18 Whiteboard

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 06:56 PM

hmm if next dmg source removes the disable, then make the next dmg amplified if unit is asleep? makes sense.

 

This is about confronting the "being a target dummy for people who unload their kit" and the sorts.

 - Not giving something in return, this was never implied.

Not balancing stuns. Just a sheer concept of having less circles spinning in the air of heroes.

 

More gameplay, less routine.

 

More variety, less standard picks.

 

And finaly an update of the meta to adapt to before things stagnate once more and we get something new to complain about.


GG humanity, as always.

#19 Whiteboard

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 07:00 PM

So far we have a couple of suggestions towards this topic:

 

Reduce damage output.
Reduce stun durations on abilities.

Replace stun debuff with Slow and/or Silence.

Replace stun debuff with Sleep.

 

So far, replacing regular stun debuffs with Sleep and/or reducing damage of stun placing skills has my favour.

 

Yet, keep the suggestions coming.

 

And I propose we hold a voting or concensual agreement within a span of few days to a winning concept to be applied.
- Alternatively whenever and whatever Draco feels like fits best for the map.


GG humanity, as always.

#20 DracoL1ch

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 07:31 PM

voting wont help anyway. sleep is flawed 'cause of way too many dots used in skills, thats pretty much bane's sleep which is barely useful


Remember that English isnt my first language. I have really tough time speaking it, tho can read freely.





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